Re: ETOPS question on Aer Lingus A330

Date:         01 Dec 97 02:33:53 
From: (James Matthew Weber)
Organization: Customer of Access One Pty Ltd, Melbourne, Australia
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>The JT9D certainly was big enough for the 767-300 -- the first flight
>of a 767-300 was powered by JT9D engines!  JAL was the only customer,
>however, with 18 examples.

Perhaps for the -300, certainly not for the -300ER. I am are of no
-300ER's that are JT9D powered. The -300 ER's MGTOW is up to 71,000
pounds higher than the -300. The -300 MGTOW is well below even the
-200ER's MGTOW.

>Qantas placed their initial 767-300 order on April 24, 1987.  By then,
>the 767-300 had been delivered with JT9D and CF6-80 engines.  It had
>also flown with PW4000s, but that combination had not yet been

QANTAS only bought the -300ER variant, and while you probably could
use the JT9D on the -300ER, I don't know of anyone who did. It would
imply a fairly sizeable loss in MGTOW. The largest JT9D is 56,000
pounds, the CF6-80 used on the -300ER's is rated at 60,800 pounds
thrust, and also has an SFC advantage over the largest of the JT9D's
almost 10%. On the long haul routes QANTAS operates the -300ER's, the
loss of payload and the higher fuel burn on the JT9's would have been
a significant problem.

>Lack of deliveries at time of order is not in itself a plausible
>reason for an airline to avoid an engine, however, since *somebody*
>has to take the first step.  More plausible is that Qantas, like many
>JT9D operators, had not had a good experience with them.  When they
>ordered their 767-300s, they weren't about to repeat their mistake and
>order more Pratts, old or new.  They switched from the JT9D to RB.211
>for later 747 orders for the same reason.

I don't believe that was the reason. They bought the 767-200's long
after the airline was buying 747's with RR engines.  My understanding
is they got better fuel economy on the RB211-524D4D's. On the QANTAS
route structure, that was not a trivial issue. A few per cent
difference in SFC if you keep flying 5-7000 miles leg is a lot of
money as both fuel saved, and cargo carried.

>>RR had only one customer (I think it still does, BA).
>At the time of Qantas' order, RR had no customers at all, since the BA
>order for 25 767-300s with RB.211 engines wasn't placed until August
>14, 1987.  There's one other customer for RR-powered 767s -- China
>Yunnan has three, the last delivered just this past January, with
>options for two more.  Nice engines, but you've got to be nuts to buy
>them on the 767 because the small world-wide fleet means their resale
>value is extremely low.

QANTAS knows all about that, they have a couple of 747-SP's that are
unique. (They have the only SP's with RB211-524D4D's in the world), in
fact there appear to be only 3 or 4 RR equpped SP's  ever built.